My Favorite Right Wing, Nick is AWOL. In his stead, a fellow named John is guest blogging, and has put in his two cents on the Duke rape case, in two installments. I reproduce them here for two reasons: First, I want to respond to them in depth; and B, If he wants to argue about it, we can do it here, because Nick told us not to burn the place down in his absence. Of course, anyone here who wants to go visit and expand on my points can find the stuff here.
John sez:
Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong could learn a thing or two from the Reverend Al Sharpton. For the memory impaired among you; back in 1987 Tawana Brawley went missing. The a 15-year-old black girl was found four days later covered in dog feces and with racial slurs written on her body.The defense makes LOTS of claims. That's their jobs. A claim is made above that the second stripper did not beleive the allegation; Please note below that he says the second stripper supports the allegation. In reality, the second stripper vehemently denies saying anything that the defense attorneys claimed she said.
[Snip...retread of the Tawana Brawley Case. Would be inadmissable in a court of law].
Fast forward to April, 2006. Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong is up for re-election in a racially mixed town. 46 college athletes (members of the Duke University Lacrosse team) are getting together to party. The athletes hired a stripper. The stripper later claims that three of the athletes raped her.
There is no physical evidence she was raped. The stripper claimed she scratched the attackers, but no DNA was found anywhere on her, including under her fingernails. A second stripper at the party has, according to defense attorneys, stated point blank that she does not believe the allegation. The defense claims they have time stamped photos showing typical proceedings of such an event, which shows a stripper doing her job, not being victimized. The police, later the same night, found the stripper passed out from being drunk, but in no immediate need of medical attention.
It should be noted that although his next post on the subject contradicts the above assertion that there was no physical evidence that she was raped, he does not admit to being wrong about it.
The statement that no DNA was found on her is indicative of a gross misunderstanding of how evidence, and DNA evidence, works. First of all, DNA is implicit in human cells- to say she had no DNA is to say she isn't human(and we'll get to that implication later). The defense was trumpeting initially inconclusive DNA testing as exoneration, when it's just...inconclusive. Doesn't PROVE anything one way or the other.
Mike Nifong is pressing ahead with his rape case against these athletes. Does he have information not made public? Perhaps one of the athletes is ratting his pals out? Or, is Mike Nifong thinking of his career and his re-election? Is he really going to destroy the reputations and the bank accounts of these young men and their families on a “he said – she said” case?
Of course he has information not made public. He's the friggin DISTRICT ATTORNEY. Not only is he privy to the testimonies and to the victims and accused directly, it's actually, you know, HIS JOB to pursue this case. In addition, there's information available in locations besides Rush Limbaugh and Instaputrid. (Hey, if he can make a crack about the flea collar below, I can take a swipe at ol' Gay Glenn)
Future political career notwithstanding, is it impossible to comprehend that Mr. Nifong may be pursuing this case because he believes a CRIME occurred? You know, that's what you call it when someone breaks the law, even if they are white athletes whose daddies are big time Republicans.
In reality, he said/ she said is often what crime cases come down to. Just this morning, I listened to Joel McNally and Cassandra Cassandra discussing the Jude case, and they said the very same thing. The issue is in a trial, whose story is more believable and SUPPORTED BY FACTS. (Facts are those things that we are constantly obsessed by in the Reality-Based Community).
Mike Nifong had better win this walking away. If he doesn’t, he’ll be this generation’s version of that beloved democratic icon, Al Sharpton.
Someone get Mr. Nifong a flea collar, on standby.
He keeps bringing up Sharpton, trying to discredit the DA by association. Their only similarity? They're black. It's as if I claimed that because Republican Governor Ryan was sentenced to twenty years for corruption, that ALL Republicans are criminals and corrupt... Wait.
Later:
Video of the indicted lacrosse athletes and their names were released today. Reade Seligmann, a sophomore from Essex Fells, N.J., and Collin Finnerty, a sophomore from Garden City, N.Y. are now at the mercy of the North Carolina justice system. Both athletes made $400,000 bail.
NBC’s Today Show showed three of the time-stamped photos that defense attorneys claim clear their clients of any wrongdoing in this rape case. The one photo of the stripper was pixilated so that her face was not discernable. Presumably this is to protect her identity. The NBC reporter claimed the stripper in the picture is smiling as she left the ‘scene of the crime’. He also claimed she had left once that night, and then returned to the house to retrieve a shoe she dropped.
What does Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong have? The stripper claims that she left the house after exchanging harsh words with some of the athletes, she was then lured back into the house, then taken to a bathroom and subjected to a brutal thirty minute rape by three of the athletes.
Unless you are party to the sealed indictment, you have no idea what the preliminary evidence shows, and neither do I. The DA does, and so does the judge who issued the indictment- I presume the defense attorneys do also.
Incidentally, Steve Gilliard reports that one of the defense lawyers is a high priced attorney, Bob Bennett. Of course, being paid for by someone's daddy (but being portrayed as defending Duke' “honor”). Goes without saying that the victim is not going to have such a highly regarded legal counsel. Yet another example of how this case is exposing the differences in class, gender, and race.
Steve G has much more (all culled from Google and the internet- astonishing how much info you can find outside of Righist squawkers) Here. It's worth looking through, if just to see how much is being left out of the news reports.
Which brings up the question: what physical evidence would such a thirty-minute ordeal leave on the woman’s body? Semen, obviously, but what about scratches, bruises, vaginal bruising and/or contusions?
No information of the stripper’s physical condition has been released. Could the young woman’s condition back up her claims? Is Nifong proceeding on physical evidence in his vigorous prosecution of this case?Contrary to what you John states, at least part of the medical report has been reported. From a lengthy discussion at Pandagon: there is a medical repot that states “signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally,”
And really, what sort of woman would suffer a rape attack, and then return later to retrieve a lost shoe?Obviously, my friend, a woman who wants her shoe back. Couple of thoughts: witnesses describe the strippers as leaving, then returning, and based on what I've read, THIS is when the assault occurred. So she went back for the shoe BEFORE the assault occurred. Also, the woman obviously was not as economically fortunate as some of us, maybe, just maybe she could ill afford to lose a shoe- stripper heels probably aren't cheap.
It is pretty well known among doctors and women's rights groups that reactions to sexual assault are extremely varied. Some women fall completely apart- some become very controlled and unemotional. I say, until you and I are raped, ,we don't have much authority to claim that a woman is exhibiting the proper post-assault behavior. I think you've got the ORDER of events wrong, in any case.
Oh, we will John, we will. And can I be assured that should the case turn out to be true, that you will issue a heartfelt mea culpa?
Stay tuned.
what is it about this case that so instantly raises the hackles of RightBloggers? I mean, almost instantly comparisons to the Brawley case were oozing out. Why? Because the victim is black, and the alleged attackers white? Is it that there have been no rape cases in the last fifteen years, or just that there have been so few fraudulent cases? Why the sudden desire to portray the white boys as victims?
Is it that the accused are white, or that they're rich? Do we see the same rabid defense when a black athlete is accused of rape? I don't recall it. Actually, my recollection is more of a dog pile, with vermin like Rush talking about 'these people' and otherwise employing their favorite coded language to imply that you can't expect anything else, that blacks are little better than animals. Same old Southern strategy.
So why the rush to claim the woman is lying and the athletes are being falsely accused? Yes, yes, I know, innocent until proven guilty, but that refers to court proceedings, and to get to that point, someone has to be accused and tried in a court of law. Hence, indictments and arrests.
At least initially, there seems to be good reasons to suspect several of the guys involved. Neighbors report constant, ongoing problems with drunkenness and behavior associated with the house and the lacrosse team. A couple of the guys have had other brushes with the law, including assault. Also, conspicuously absent from John's outline above is an email one of the captains wrote, stating that he wanted to get a couple of strippers to the party and kill and eat them. Witnesses support that racially charged insults were being yelled from the house.
Incidentally, one of JJ's points in his rehash of the Brawley case was the cost to the unjustly accused to defend himself. In this case, the two initial indictments had bail set at $400,000 (also by the by: when a judge sets high bail, part of the reason is that he finds credible preliminary evidence of guilt), which they promptly paid. As they point out at Pandagon, this means Mommy and Daddy had no problem pulling at least $40,000 each out of thin air to help Juniors not spend a night in lockup. Personally, if it was my kid, I'd say ask your dick for bail cuz it got you into this, and until it can get you out, you can damn well spend your time in jail. But I digress- my point here is that the suspects come from very well to do families, which DOES make this crime at last partially about class and entitlement.
Yes, they might not be guilty. And they might. That's for the court case and jury to decide.
Incidentally, I was a juror for a rape case several years ago. In fact, I was Chairperson. I was a bit taken aback at how thoroughly people had internalized the standard arguments against a rape case. “She was asking for it” “He couldn't control himself” “She didn't seem to be too upset about it.”
In our case, the victim was thirteen years old at the time of the crime (although she was nearly eighteen when the court case happened) and her assailant was nearly thirty. during the trial, it seemed that the prosecution did not have a plethora of information, and it also seemed that the judge was a bit biased against the defense attorney. Nevertheless, after a bit of deliberation, we managed to disregard these issues to evaluate the evidence we were given. It did, indeed, very nearly boil down to he said/she said.
We returned a guilty verdict. Afterward, the judge asked us to remain in the jury room for a bit; he came in afterward. We found out that the girl was so much older because the rapist had developed into a bit of jailhouse lawyer and had had his case brought to trial four times previously, this was the fifth. This also explained the young woman's composure- she had been through it enough to have been composed on the stand (and don't think some jurors didn't hold that composure against her). The rapist couldn't find an attorney willing to take the case one more time, so the judge actually asked a favor of a personal friend to be defense attorney, thus the apparent bias in the form of unwillingness to entertain bs from the attorney. And finally, he knew that although the rapist had been successful in having much of the evidence against him (More than we were allowed to see) not allowed, he congratulated us and thanked us for being able to still discern guilt.
What I'm saying is that the truth will not be decided by Rush and InstaPuck, no matter how much they whinge. And although they are trying to deflect the attention to the DA and the woman (she's a stripper! How shameful!), it is by the very nature of its participants, going to be about class, and race, and sexism, and entitlement. In fact, regardless of the outcome, it can be a place to start discussing these things.
http://www.dilby.com/ will answer some of your questions.
ReplyDelete“My Favorite Right Wing, Nick is AWOL. In his stead, a fellow named John is guest blogging, and has put in his two cents on the Duke rape case, in two installments. I reproduce them here for two reasons: First, I want to respond to them in depth; and B, If he wants to argue about it, we can do it here, because Nick told us not to burn the place down in his absence. Of course, anyone here who wants to go visit and expand on my points can find the stuff here.”
ReplyDeleteLet me start by saying that I used to tease TC about his chosen handle, yet here he is treating me half-way decently. What a guy!
“[Snip...retread of the Tawana Brawley Case. Would be inadmissable in a court of law].”
True. And also aside from the point of my post.
"The defense makes LOTS of claims. That's their jobs. A claim is made above that the second stripper did not beleive the allegation; Please note below that he says the second stripper supports the allegation. In reality, the second stripper vehemently denies saying anything that the defense attorneys claimed she said."
Defense attorneys do that, I suppose. These particular defense attorneys may be attempting to prejudice any potential jury pool with these sorts of pronouncements. I hadn’t read that the second stripper recanted or denied the defense attorney’s statement. But I knew the recanting would happen. She was no doubt under immediate pressure, from all sorts of people and places, to support her co-worker.
“The statement that no DNA was found on her is indicative of a gross misunderstanding of how evidence, and DNA evidence, works. First of all, DNA is implicit in human cells- to say she had no DNA is to say she isn't human(and we'll get to that implication later). The defense was trumpeting initially inconclusive DNA testing as exoneration, when it's just...inconclusive. Doesn't PROVE anything one way or the other.”
No white-boy skin under those fingernails isn’t worth a pause? If she scratched her attackers, as she claimed, who had short sleeve shirts on (according to NBC), they’d find stuff under her fingernails. How is that wrong?
“Of course he has information not made public. He's the friggin DISTRICT ATTORNEY. Not only is he privy to the testimonies and to the victims and accused directly, it's actually, you know, HIS JOB to pursue this case. In addition, there's information available in locations besides Rush Limbaugh and Instaputrid. (Hey, if he can make a crack about the flea collar below, I can take a swipe at ol' Gay Glenn)”
I don’t know who ol’ Gay Glenn is. But you make a good point. Nifong does have differing standards for his conduct from that of the defense attorneys.
“Future political career notwithstanding, is it impossible to comprehend that Mr. Nifong may be pursuing this case because he believes a CRIME occurred? You know, that's what you call it when someone breaks the law, even if they are white athletes whose daddies are big time Republicans.”
I’m sure it’s his sworn duty to at least investigate the rape charges. But he’s also elected to use his judgment. If he puts everyone through this, spends the state’s money, ruins reputations and costs all those people all that money in legal fees, and doesn’t win any convictions; then what we know right this minute will make him look like a heavy-handed hack, angling for publicity. That’s my point. He’d better win.
“He keeps bringing up Sharpton, trying to discredit the DA by association. Their only similarity? They're black.”
Nifong is white. But a reading of the below indicates that perhaps you were referring to the two alleged victims of the two cases being compared.
”Incidentally, Steve Gilliard reports that one of the defense lawyers is a high priced attorney, Bob Bennett. Of course, being paid for by someone's daddy (but being portrayed as defending Duke' “honor”). Goes without saying that the victim is not going to have such a highly regarded legal counsel. Yet another example of how this case is exposing the differences in class, gender, and race.”
ReplyDeleteIsn’t that the Bob Bennett who was on Bill Clinton’s legal defense team? I guess he ain’t one of those rich Republicans you so scorn. The victim shouldn’t need a defense council; she’s not on trial. (But honestly, we all know the defense attorneys are going to roast her.) Finally, is this was yet another example of class, gender, and race clouding the issue, what were the previous examples?
“Steve G has much more (all culled from Google and the internet- astonishing how much info you can find outside of Righist squawkers) Here. It's worth looking through, if just to see how much is being left out of the news reports. “
Just looked that over. Check this out:
“Bissey saw two women arrive and, after they were in the house 20 minutes, come out. As they got into a car, men shouted, Bissey said.”
It’s hard, no, impossible, to fit a 30 minute rape into a 20 minute time frame. And I loved (loved being used sarcastically) how this blogger you link lists names, address, and bios of the athlete’s families. Just as I said in my first post, destroying the names and bank accounts of the families involved. What’s sad here is Steve G seems to think he’s clever as he contributes to the blood circus around these boys.
That blog, my friend, that entry at least, was very thin. It was all mean-spirited personal destruction, no facts to speak of.
"Contrary to what you John states, at least part of the medical report has been reported. From a lengthy discussion at Pandagon: there is a medical repot that states “signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally,”
Ah, yes:
“Police initially thought the accuser was intoxicated but later took her to the Duke University Hospital emergency room. She had “signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally,” according to a district attorney’s affidavit.”
You left out that it was the district attorney’s affidavit. In other words, the opposing lawyers with their own pack of exaggerations and truth-stretching. I’ll bet you right now that the defense attorneys will knock this out of the park come trial time. Just a hunch. Other than that, this blog was as thin as the first.
You’ve put me in the awkward position of believing NBC over a couple of bloggers. I may have to turn in my Vast Right Wing Conspiracy card.
“Obviously, my friend, a woman who wants her shoe back. Couple of thoughts: witnesses describe the strippers as leaving, then returning, and based on what I've read, THIS is when the assault occurred. So she went back for the shoe BEFORE the assault occurred. Also, the woman obviously was not as economically fortunate as some of us, maybe, just maybe she could ill afford to lose a shoe- stripper heels probably aren't cheap. “
You could be right, someone will put on a timeline that lists these details. And, from what I remember in college, stripper heals were usually cheap stuff. After all the ones they kicked at me, I sort of picked up on that.
“And can I be assured that should the case turn out to be true, that you will issue a heartfelt mea culpa?”
I probably won’t. While I presented my thoughts favorably towards the athletes, I made no pronouncements of guilt or innocence.
“what is it about this case that so instantly raises the hackles of RightBloggers? I mean, almost instantly comparisons to the Brawley case were oozing out. Why? Because the victim is black, and the alleged attackers white? Is it that there have been no rape cases in the last fifteen years, or just that there have been so few fraudulent cases? Why the sudden desire to portray the white boys as victims?”
Let me ask you; where did you stand on the Kobe Bryant rape trial? Me, I felt he was probably getting a bad rap, but as a rich and famous dude, he should have known better. He was stupid, at the most, probably. What did you think? Did you see a victimized woman, or a victimized black guy?
“Is it that the accused are white, or that they're rich? Do we see the same rabid defense when a black athlete is accused of rape? I don't recall it. Actually, my recollection is more of a dog pile, with vermin like Rush talking about 'these people' and otherwise employing their favorite coded language to imply that you can't expect anything else, that blacks are little better than animals. Same old Southern strategy.”
Dude, you’re starting to rant.
“At least initially, there seems to be good reasons to suspect several of the guys involved. Neighbors report constant, ongoing problems with drunkenness and behavior associated with the house and the lacrosse team.”
ReplyDeleteIn other words, they were fairly typical male college students. If you didn’t have at least one brush with the law in college, you were probably some kind of pansy.
“A couple of the guys have had other brushes with the law, including assault. Also, conspicuously absent from John's outline above is an email one of the captains wrote, stating that he wanted to get a couple of strippers to the party and kill and eat them. Witnesses support that racially charged insults were being yelled from the house.”
True, I didn’t mention that weird cannabalism thing. The defense attorneys are using that email as more proof of innocence.
“But I digress- my point here is that the suspects come from very well to do families, which DOES make this crime at last partially about class and entitlement. “
Not really, being rich is no crime. And not everything is about class and entitlement.
“And although they are trying to deflect the attention to the DA and the woman (she's a stripper! How shameful!), it is by the very nature of its participants, going to be about class, and race, and sexism, and entitlement. In fact, regardless of the outcome, it can be a place to start discussing these things.”
Well, that’s a nice and typical liberal mindset. You should know that moderate and rational people won’t agree with you.
John, I never took any offense at ridicule of my nom de blog. I figure it's not too damn hard to figure out who I am, but as a small business owner, I just figured when starting the blog that I should at least make some attempt to keep things a bit separate. And in the flush of first publishing, TC was the best I could come up with. Not as flashy as Pinko Punko or Hindrocket, to be sure, but 'tis mine own.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the responses. Nice to know I can reinforce your stereotype of a liberal; but in your last line, are you really asserting that moderate and rational people have no desire to even discuss issues of race and class? Because that's more than a bit of a giveaway, man.
But that's really the thrust of it. After your explanations up above, Isee what you are getting at, and it's a valid point of view. It's certainly possible that it's all a farce.
But part of the point is: I don't think fear of being wrong (or not getting a convistion, which is NOT the same thing) should be the litmus test for pursuing a suspect.
This will be a difficult case. The suspects have already retained the best counsel money can buy. The unfortunate thing is, not every criminal suspect is able to do so: class enters the equation here.
Rape is a heinous crime; and notoriously difficult to prosecute and convict. As a result, women are very hesitant in far too many instances to even come forward to prosecute cases, for exactly the reasons you have so adeptly illustrated. As you say, being rich is not a crime; but in America, being poor might as well be. It is also no secret that being wealthy certainly aids in obtaining favorable court outcomes. Class again.
I keep coming back to class and race because they do matter, and DO underlie much of what passes for social interaction in America. You mention the Kobe trial; it's a good example. Maybe it received extensive play in the sports page, but not so much in general news. Because it didn't cross all those race and class barriers. Myself, I felt it was a rape case, and I wasn't really in a position to judge. That's why we have to have court cases.
It's the presumption you present that the privileged are due some kind of deference; that they don't deserve to be subject to this attention- why? If a rape did occur, it behooves the DA to pursue it in any case. Even in the case of no conviction, it may be because of the inability to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, or a hung jury; it does not necessarily translate that a rape didn't happen
These was a large group of white guys, jocks in an elite college, that come from well to do families. They use this position as a shield for out of bounds behavior. They specifically hired black strippers - there's a racial component. Being in college doesn't excuse abhorrent behavior, nor does being drunk. But the point here is that having led a life of protected privilege, some of them have come to feel that the rules and laws do not apply to them. This is where entitlement comes in.
But I ramble. As I started to say up above, I can't see that a potential backlash from a case should have a bearing on whether a DA pursues a case or not. If he's doing his job, some part of the truth should end up being exposed. Prosecution of the case can occur within the realm of the legal system without it turning into a circus like Brawley, and fear of media attention should not be the threshold. If it was a crime that happened to me, I would certainly like to think that the prosecution would be interested in the truth, not playing it safe.
So far, I see the DA has been using his judgement, as you say. A judge supported his judgment by issuing indictments and a relatively stiff bail.
I do have to admit that I jumped to conclusions that the DA was black. You know what they say about assumptions; this time I just made an ass out of me.